LLD101

[LiveChaldean]

alright i was dueling against a couple of people who were llder's adn they kept telling me my smite wasnt melee is was caster...??

im confused

[SoaringSquirrel]

To some people, melee attacks must be an attack that is AR dependent, requires you to be next to the person, and executed while not moving. So CS, WW, and Smite are all excluded.

It's a skill, but I wouldn't call it a caster skill, and certainly not a ranged. It's more of an in-between, like the bridge between melee and ranged, so I'd say LLD101's "Open" category is the best way to consider it.

At the LLD level, though, smite is still quite close to the other melee skills, so I don't see a problem with sticking it in as a competitor with the other LLD melees, but at higher levels, especially since the addition of Grief, it becomes quite apparent that it doesn't belong in the same bracket as other melees.

[Wank]

Casting and smiting are 2 different things. And ww isnt a cast cause it does take ar. CS and Smite are in their own category. Only people who don't like smiters can't beat smiters. And i don't believe its ranged cause u have to be near them. It is a "bridge between them though" but most ranged attks have AR so it's hard to say that. Bottom line they are... Non ar melee attks.

[Inexorable]

[Hades]

Smite I think is well capped at lvl 28 as at lvl 29 it completely dominates anyform of lld melee unless they are stacking lots of -dr gear. Altho I myself wouldn't class smite as melee it's the best category it will fit into as it is not ranged nor caster. In public duels it shouldn't matter, if they dont want to duel you because your not *melee* take it on the chin and kill some high lvls. Thats what I enjoy about smiters, they are quite easy/cheap to make into good killing machines for high lvl'd public dueling chars, especially for ladder players.

[kouky]

big controversy between this. just considered a caster attack since yah, it takes no ar, but skills like it and cs are in their category on their own like oD-pimp said, but i disagree that people who dont like smiters cant beat them, because people can kill them, but they become a pain in the ass when no matter what they hit. best solution, build 2 chars. one that uses ar, and a smiter. then you won't have a problem with this. in the cae of ww, some poeple don't consider it to be a melee attack because it involves moving away or into someone, while swinging multiple times and inuno just big controvresy between the game. some people ok with it, some not. thus, make back-up cahrs to deal wit hit.

[Jerkazoid]

we go over this so much

my 29 kicker has NO problem with a 28 smiter whatsoever.... But this doesnt mean smite belongs in the same melee catagory as conc barbs and zealots.

the definitions have to do only with the world of Diablo and the nature of its mechanics. NOT WEBSTER, or any real world based ideology. this is why people will say smite is not melee, it just doesnt belong in the same field for the sake of fair balance.

when a mediocre 30 smiter declares PWNAGE!! over some decent 30 conc barb i dont clap ,, not for a second. bravo- the person took advanatge of the games inbalance.

basic facts

smite is an Unblockable, Non AR needed attack that knocksback (wich is a form of stun)

WW is an AoE, Uniteruptible, Multi hitting, Moving attack (imagine if zealots could walk away from you while zealing???)

CS is an unblockable, Non AR depenedant, Semi-aoe attack

and it wasnt mentioned but YES; charge is an insanely HIGH DMG, MOVING attack that knocksback (wich is a form of stun, and thus can lock opponents) its used with a guerilla tactic, sniping your opponent and not giving them a chance to melee in return.. it too crosses lines of fairness and this is why its the overused PK build

classifying these attacks with other melee skills that lack the same intrinsic properties creates inbalance. and rather then just have a level playing field of ONLY WW, CS, SMITE AND CHARGE (wich is all hld "melee" is mostly right?) lld101 9-30 wanted to have zealots, sacers',conc barbs, kickers,, druid melee etc...

its not that the lld101 rules hasnt done it job to assit balance (smiters at 28 for instance) but be mindfull of these inherint strengths the skills offer the build.

[Hellfireclanx]

would you also classify leap attack and dragon flight as non melee? like charge leap attack doesn't work if you are right next to the person, and it has knockback.

[breakbeatz2]

[Ehhh]

I'm sick of people categorizing ww/smite/cs as caster attacks, just because they're unbalanced. They're melee, as they require you to be in range.

I'm not saying they're balanced, since they aren't. But they sure as hell are melee. Iron maiden them and you will see. Why do definitions of words change for a game? Melee is melee whether you like it or not.

[Jerkazoid]

i do beileve Berserk does not adhere to the iron maiden theory. would this mean bersker is not melee? [rhetorical bc its close hand-to-hand and must be "melee"] ok so thats 1 small hole so far

websters definition have little to do with the game since the game is lax about using real world definitions [in diablo, unique items are not unique.] ok so thats logic hole #2

Diablos game data has 3 labels for attacks as thus;
melee,
missle(or was it range?)
special.

as RTB pointed out once; WW is under the "special" catagorey by blizzard themselves. So theres another hole in our logic (3)
ww utilizes more range by making the barb a projectile, same with charge. add to that nature the huge dmg, or aoe, or knowckback, or fast spammable nature.. etc... we know why its popular and why these skills are powerfull.

CS is a combo of a melee with missles and technically we know it can be farcasted (small hole). As for the other two, i dont know bc i dont read the code myself. but its the combonations of advantages that make these skills "outsiders"

"melee" or "range" is really only about the catagories for lld101, not a semantics argument.

technically there is always an element of range in the game at all times anyway. To make things clear ill use more diablo lingo
Diablo has whats called "RANGE" on EVERY weapon, including a fist.
starting with 1 and ending with 5. a range 5 pike is too far away from ones fist in the game, but is still melee?

what about a range 6 what if there was range 10 or 20? what if i could swing a tree 40 feet long? its still in my hand and would still reflect dmg from iron maiden right? but its range. [so this is a 4th hole in our perception and logic]

dragon talon(edit; excuse me dragon Flight) is a combo as well and is considered a pure range attack imo, however it lacks any major advanatge considering there is
1) cool down, not spammable like charge
2) low dmg for a 1 hit wonder. (pathitic u might say in comparison to charge)
3) Ar dependant , unlike smite
4) a single hit without AOE unlike ww or CS

pretty much its teleport ...with a single chance for a small amount of blockable dmg. It can be avoided by moving south anyway, its really only a tactical moving skill not much of an attack.

and just think about it,, its NOT over powered in the melee catagory so it stays in.
leap atack also lacks multiple major advantages , its slow unlike charge (easily avoidable), it doesnt have HUGE dmg, it doesnt hit multiple times, or have an AOE and requires AR.

cs,smite,ww, and charge are not to be classified as "melee" in relation to the other melee skills. (this is the main reason why things make no sense sometimes, lld101 arbitrarly made lld101 rules based on expeirence not definitions)

This is not a semantics argument.
this is the world of diablo and lld101's role in catagories for balanced LLD play

[Ehhh]

[Hellfireclanx]

Who ever suggested cs/charge/smite/ww are casters? Bowzons aren't casters either, doesn't mean they are melee. cs/smite/ww/charge are not melee for the reasons jerk said, they are considered ranged attacks. because cs/smite lack of ar, they are no more melee than guided is. Charge/ww move to attack (in other words you do not charge/ww while standing next to them... you have to attack from a distance thus it is a ranged attack)

[Ehhh]

[Jerkazoid]

ok lets make sure we are not getting nasty with eachother though.. (but i do love good strong arguments and debates)