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Low Level Dueling in 1.12
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SoaringSquirrel
Joined: 27 May 2004
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 Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject:
 The Question of Consciousness
Subject description: What is it? |
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In light of the apparently irreconcilable division rampant in religious discussion, I think a hearty discussion on the nature and existence of consciousness might help in putting us all on the same level. Not wanting to derail the previous thread, here's a nice splinter thread for consciousness. So, what do you guys think consciousness is -- does it even exist? Is it possible to have awareness beyond your own consciousness? If our experiences are indeed totally subjective, what ramafications would there be for the existence of God?
Before the discussion picks up, I'd like to point out that consciousness is not something that we can measure or quantify by any means available. Neither Turing test nor mirror test fully confirms the consciousness of an animal or machine, because it's currently an undefined concept. Not only that, but we don't understand the cause or nature of consciousness to any degree, except that it's something we claim to be able to recognize when presented to us. What we have, then, is an impossibly diaphanous construct which appears to be as flexible and unfalsifiable as the Almighty up above.
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zarc
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject:
Re: The Question of Consciousness
Subject description: What is it? |
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| SoaringSquirrel wrote: | | Before the discussion picks up, I'd like to point out that consciousness is not something that we can measure or quantify by any means available. |
Now this leads me back to the religion thread...i COMPLETELY disagree. I am all about consciousness and being self aware and being in touch with yourself. You can quantify and qualify it.
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SoaringSquirrel
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject:
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Well, consciousness is a bit more than just self-awareness, wouldn't you say? Generally, I think external awareness is also a factor to be considered on the issue of consciousness.
But yeah, moving on, so how do you propose we measure and define consciousness? It seems like another one of those concepts which are so compounded with variables and subjectivity that it's impossible to define, like intelligence or personhood, but I'd love to hear how we can differentiate the conscious from the unconscious.
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Jerkazoid
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:
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a persons philosophey will determine how they feel about consciousness.
I describe consciousness, as the sensation you feel as typical, cumulative memory, continuously is accessed at insanse rates stimulated by typical, and re-occuring, outside events.
in other words, patterns of thoughts
what i feel as normal, is a pattern of memory establishing my perception.
you dont actually see or hear or smell the world.. it just invokes every previously experienced moment that is used to describe the event. It contains the library of options and expeirences you feel as modivation.
free-will is just an illusion.
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Goky
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject:
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| Jerkazoid wrote: | a persons philosophey will determine how they feel about consciousness.
I describe consciousness, as the sensation you feel as typical, cumulative memory, continuously is accessed at insanse rates stimulated by typical, and re-occuring, outside events.
in other words, patterns of thoughts
what i feel as normal, is a pattern of memory establishing my perception.
you dont actually see or hear or smell the world.. it just invokes every previously experienced moment that is used to describe the event. It contains the library of options and expeirences you feel as modivation.
free-will is just an illusion. |
I think your post deals more with what reality is, rather than consciousness, but I like some of the things you said.
In particular, it's interesting to think about how our previous experiences shape our perceptions of day-to-day life so much. As we get older, we constantly form a little mental mold of what is "normal". It seems that most of us, for the most part, strive to be in situations and environments that line up and fit well with how we view the world.
When something comes along that we don't see as normal, or something doesn't fit within the mold, we get a little uncomforatable and troubled by it. Over time though, if the non-normal thing keeps happening, it also starts to carve out a little shape into our mold, and we can start to selectively ignore it. Imagine living in Small Town USA and going to some big city where there's lots of homeless people asking for money. It'd be pretty upsetting and troubling, and probably make you depressed and feel awful for a while. However, someone who had lived in inner-city New York all their life doesn't really think twice about it, and it doesn't bother them.
And also, what you said about smells/sounds/hearing--I think about that a lot. The universe doesn't actually "look" like anything, it's just jumbles of atoms arranged in various shapes with particles bouncing around everywhere. Color is pretty much an illusion, it's just our brains interpreting electronic transitions into something tangible. Smell is just our brains interpreting certain gas-phase molecular arrangements, and sound is just our brains interpreting the vibration of air molecules. It's kind of interesting to think of what would happen if more phenomona in the universe could be interpreted. What if we could actually could perceive electric and magnetic fields, what if we could actually perceive light other than that in the 400-750nm range (aside from being burnt by gamma rays or something). Anyway you look at it really, we're only perceiving a small subset of the universe.
It's also sort of fun to realize that everything you perceive right now is actually in the past, considering it took a small fraction of a second for that photon to bounce from this computer monitor in front of you, to your eye, then to your brain where the information could be processed.
As far as the free-will part, I'd have to disagree with you, or at least ask you to elaborate. How do we not have free-will barring limitations with things that aren't physically possible?
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zarc
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject:
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| Goky wrote: |
It's also sort of fun to realize that everything you perceive right now is actually in the past, considering it took a small fraction of a second for that photon to bounce from this computer monitor in front of you, to your eye, then to your brain where the information could be processed.
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this is the very root of time travel...
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Jerkazoid
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:
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to what end?
so to keep it simple ill say 1 word; Determinism
the internet (or a library) can do the rest
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SoaringSquirrel
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:
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| Jerkazoid wrote: | I describe consciousness, as the sensation you feel as typical, cumulative memory, continuously is accessed at insanse rates stimulated by typical, and re-occuring, outside events.
in other words, patterns of thoughts
what i feel as normal, is a pattern of memory establishing my perception. |
Is every cell conscious, then? Are even fundamental particles "conscious", since they store every bit of information they've received in them, information paradox nothwithstanding?
| Quote: | | free-will is just an illusion. |
Ah, free will is an interesting topic to bring up under consciousness. I'd never thought of that before ? can a creature without free will be really "conscious"? I suppose so, depending on your definitions of them. While it may very well be true that the world is deterministic, it's not necessarily true that this rules out free will. Is free will the capacity for one to act without any outside interference? If so, then I'm absolutely certain that this does not exist, even barring determinism. However, if it's the ability for a being to make decisions on its own, then even with determinism, it's very possible, though I'd personally call it "volition" to be safe.
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Jerkazoid
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject:
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| SoaringSquirrel wrote: |
Is every cell conscious, then? Are even fundamental particles "conscious", since they store every bit of information they've received in them, information paradox nothwithstanding?
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im getting lost.
your stating that a cell has infinte memory?
i dont think thats true. a cell is a predictably responsive organism to a predicatable event, successful through years of evolution. its domino act of cause and effect is limited. but your immune system on the other hand is a pattern of these cells desinged to enter a feedback and establish a return pattern of combat.
| SoaringSquirrel wrote: |
Is free will the capacity for one to act without any outside interference? If so, then I'm absolutely certain that this does not exist, even barring determinism.
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it was already a paradox though.
how could you be free some of the time?
to truely have no modivating powers outside your memory/biology? (or even a divine creator who has a plan?)
as a determinist i already accept that as impossble... with that,
i still argue its simply an illusion. This accepts the notion you think you have freewill, (ethicaly meaning you do), but metaphysically reasons you dont.
it makes alot of secne to me
its as if we are smart, but not smart enough to know what we truely are.. i beileve we have an unconscious, the shield of our past.
| SoaringSquirrel wrote: |
However, if it's the ability for a being to make decisions on its own, then even with determinism, it's very possible, though I'd personally call it "volition" to be safe. |
and i substitute choice with "modivation"
whenever a discussion of fate vs freedom came up, the answer always seemed a loop "your free to choose your fate..."
the deterministic theory seemed to uphold that paradox, so i like it 
so the question described in the post orginally i still stand by my 1st repsonce,
your consiousness is the illusion of your entire life replaying over and over as "thoughts"
you associate hidden memory which creates the continious pattern of "wall" "chair" baby" and "fower" with all the memories effected by these associates.
then you evalute a solution based on the conotated biological sensations associated with your imagined responces.
and you "choose" to do what your mind/body "knows" to feel right.
thus your just a computer with the calming illusion of inteligence.
this is the only logical mechanical explanation i have as to why you become "wiser" over time and then degrade as your biology degrades.
i dont beileve you can extend it beyond subjective. this is 1 of the limits ouf our knowledge.
but i beileve it might be possible to focus so much of our biology and acheive a sensativity level for our awarness which could closely mimic the capacity to feel what others feel , and thus operate in a more objective outcome.
the ramifications of a god existing? it still fits my philosophey bc as a determinist you can still say something set the first patterns into motion.
though this entity may not have a hand in anything after that moment.
so it really woulnt matter at that point... wich is how i feel
beyond that i dont fit into spiritual discussions well.
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