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The time now is Sun May 19, 2024 11:44 pm All times are UTC - 8 |
 Forum index » Diablo 2 Discussion Section » LLD Discussion |
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Is killing spirits BM??
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| Page 13 of 16 [234 Posts] | Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 Next |
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TacoBell
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 223  0.00 Silvarrr |
Did you forget to mention the fact that the majority of people don't find those skills "bm"? Maybe you forgot most people think it's fine to use mana pots. You see where I'm going with this? People steal gold even though they know it's rude. How often do you find people trying to justify that stealing gold is "gm"? That was a completely useless topic to bring up.
I only follow rules I agree with. Do you mindlessly follow any rule that someone throws at you? I doubt it. You are trying to convince people something that they don't believe in. You need to learn how to separate facts from opinions. |
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Roy
My level 18s > yours  Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 5750 223.30 Silvarrr |
Not really - if the only justification for BM behavior is that "everyone does it," that still doesn't make it acceptable. And yes, mana potting is extremely BM. If people mana pot against me, I consider it a breach of dueling etiquette. The only people who can decide on GM/BM are the two duel participants. If two Necros want to have a NvN duel with Prison and Decrep, that doesn't mean they're BM'ing each other. Again, even if a majority of people assume that killing spirits is kosher, that doesn't account for the people who follow GM melee dueling etiquette (like on DTrades). It's not a unanimous decision - some people find it BM, some people don't. Obviously Fudge and Iowa disagree over what qualifies as GM in the duel. What should have happened was that they duel a few times without killing spirits, and they duel a few times with killing spirits. That way, they can see if it even affects the outcome. However, for someone to continue to do so despite the other person's objections is quite BM. It's not a tactical advantage, just like Cleg's Gloves isn't a tactical advantage - it's simply bad mannered. And it's even worse to post screenshots here in an attempt to flame Iowa for following a certain GM duel ruleset.
Oh good - I don't agree with a 55 MPH speeding limit, but I respect it. And I certainly don't tell the police officer who pulls me over that he needs to separate facts from opinion. No one here has quoted any rules (facts, if you will) that state that it's okay to target someone's spirit intentionally. To the contrary, I do see a lot of opinions that it's not BM. However, most of these same people have ignored the GM PvP communities' rules (facts) that state that targeting spirits is BM in melee dueling. To the contrary, Taco, you need to separate facts from opinions. Until you can quote me a rule (fact), and perhaps it would help if Gheed or Knarl updated the LLD101 rules to cover this, I will still go by what I believe to be accepted dueling etiquette. This includes (1) following rules and (2) honoring reasonable requests regarding the duel. When I duel people from LLD101, I certainly follow LLD101 rules, and I respect their GM requests of me. By the way, I don't agree with a ban on Cleg's Gloves! By Taco Bell's logic, I'm not BM - I'm just doing what I agree with. _________________
yarly |
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Hades
Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Posts: 958 0.00 Silvarrr |
Using a few other sites rules and applying them here and telling the *majority8 of the voters in this poll that spirit is bm. Is like me coming over from the European realm and saying omg, you are all going to lvl 30, or omg you don't allow smiters to lvl 29, your bm. But like you say its all ones beliefs, and the majority of people in this site believe that its not in the most cases BM. In certain cases it may be considered bm. Besides those rules are set for HLD duelers, do you think they comply to lld101 rules? Are there sorcs allowed to teleport? do they have many restricitons on how many sol's you can wear?
Are you saying the majority of lld101, mana pots/steals gold/use bone prison, on each other in what they percieve to be gm duels? I think not, so your assailing fact in this quote is that the majority of people BM. But I'd like to think that the majority of the members of lld101 don't bm on purpose and seeing that they will be the ones who you will be dueling the most in a *GM* way there majority oppinion ranks alot stronger than the oppinion of most pubs. Heck its considered Bad Mannered in some place not to belch/burp in front of the cook as a sign of a good meal. Belching infront of anyone outside of those circumstances is considered bad mannered. So what your arguing is, that because its Good Mannered to belch in one place and they basically insist you do it. The majority of the world has to comply to your rules on manners? These are just opinions and therefore there is no right or wrong really. But more people believe it is not BM, so those in the minority will have to state before duels they wish to duel in a different manner to what the majority expect. In this regard the opponent who has been asked can either accept it or reject it. Then the ball is in the *non-killing spirits* guys court if the opponent rejects the terms. You can a) not duel and remain in your beliefs a elitist/purist or b) accept that most people dont see the world through the same eyes and adapt. [Heck dueling is bad mannered, your out there to kill each other] |
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ThatGuy
Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 1712 BNet Acct/Realm: MONTREAL YAA! Quit d2 5.36 Silvarrr |
Remember this thread? Roy, if I recall correctly, you were advocating the whole time that a vocal minority is not a majority, and you were pointing at the poll results the entire time. Also, if I remember correctly, the people who were for keeping forum gold were saying that it benefits people from other sites, as well as the 'minority' here. You were saying that we don't need any outsider help to keep this site going. Now the tables have turned, and you're pulling rules and etiquitte from other sites. Forum gold was banned because of that thread, what do you think is going to happen here since roles have reversed? You're owning yourself, Roy. _________________  |
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TacoBell
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 223 0.00 Silvarrr |
Listen "Roy." You continue to dodge the fact that what is and is not "bm" is based on general consensus. All your arguments are pointless. I already covered the basis of your argument, and you keep repeating the same crap over and over. All your analogies don't even apply to this situation, we're talking about a friggin game not unsafe driving practices. |
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Meegz ?
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 2671 BNet Acct/Realm: *meegz @ east ladder 39.74 Silvarrr |
The relevance of the example's he's using doesn't matter, because he's using them to point out similar logical fallacies in people's arguements. When you have to resort to ignoring the point of what he's saying because it isn't an example you think he should be using (for whatever reason) then you are grasping for things to argue with and running out of arguements quickly. Pretty soon, all you are going to have left is "I know you are, but what am I?" _________________ Napalm loves the little children, all the little children of the world, Red and Yellow, Black and White They are Candles in the Night Napalm loves the little children of the world. |
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Roy
My level 18s > yours Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 5750 223.30 Silvarrr |
Actually, you recall incorrectly. I stated that LLD101 is not a democracy, and I only pointed to the poll results to refute the fallacious assertion that "Everyone here believes that LLD101 should use FG." Let's stick to topic now, shall we?
How have the tables turned? There are no LLD101 rules governing killing spirits. The second there are, I will abide by them. Fudge asked the question whether killing spirits is BM. Most people here think that it is not, but that doesn't automatically discount the fact that many GM PvP leagues do consider it BM. If anything, this discussion suggests that LLD101 should clarify its Melee rules to include this situation. And if Knarl/Gheed/whoever chooses to make killing spirits in melee GM, you won't see any complaint from me.
Actually, I hope that the rules are updated, because this debate shows that this issue is neither clear-cut nor universally agreed upon. Include killing spirits in the LLD101 rules - that would solve this problem entirely. And either way that Knarl/Gheed decide, I'll abide by those rules. Not a hard concept. I don't even duel melee, so I won't be impacted either way. Again, I'm a bit confused how a discussion of imaginary e-currency from a separate site compares to Battle.net dueling etiquette. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Listen, "Taco." You continue to resort to the ridiculous assumption that dueling etiquette is simply majority opinion -- it's not. Mana pots are a good example. I don't care if the majority of LLD101 mana pots, I still consider that to be BM. The way that I determine low dueling etiquette is (1) LLD101 rules first and foremost and (2) in the absence of any clear rule here, accepted rules and conduct elsewhere - since they usually err on the side of good manners. I haven't seen anyone cite any PvP rules that state that killing spirits is GM in melee duels.
Not quite - you spout logical fallacies such as "Whatever the majority says must be correct!" and "I only abide by rules I agree with!" LLD101 doesn't have rules governing killing spirits in melee duels. Until it does, there is no way to resolve this situation. You're not going to prove me wrong because (1) majority opinion doesn't trump actual rules and (2) the only rules I've seen have stated that killing spirits is BM in melee dueling. I've never seen anyone make the argument that "In low level dueling, accepted dueling etiquette should not apply." If there's any rules that allow for kiling spirits in GM melee, please quote them. Again, if LLD101 wants to add killing spirits to the rules, I'll be thrilled - the point of rules is to give everyone a guideline for dueling conduct, so that pointless debates such as this one can be avoided. @Dsm-Hades, your response was very well thought-out. I agree with almost all your points, but a majority of LLD101 users use mana pots (based on my observation); a majority of LLD101 users voted for BP to be legal in ear_god's poll; and everything sorc I've ever dueled has teleported. That doesn't mean that such conduct is GM per se - it's just prevalent on B.Net, and I certainly don't complain when people do it. However, if I requested a GM duel against someone (e.g. Arena dueling), I would expect that they follow the LLD101 rules. On a final note, yes, I agree completely with the point that since a minority of people believe killing spirits is BM, they should request that to their opponents prior to dueling. However, when Iowa stated this to Fudge, Fudge immediately started insulting Iowa here stating "Killing spirits is BM? Another priceless quote from the almighty Iowa" or some crap like that. That's clearly bad mannered. Last edited by Roy on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
No Meegz, actually the speed argument is completely worthless. The speed limit is determined by a general consensus of what is correct for that area. Similarly, what is BM/GM in LLD is determined by the general consensus of LLDers.
Well then you should respect the general consensus that killing a spirit is not BM. Meegz - are you beginning to see how rjg twists logic yet? |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
There is no rule against it, therefore it is GM according to LLD101 rules. There are an infinite number of things which are not in LLD101's rules. Do you need clarification on whether each one of these infinite things is OK? OMGZ there's no rule governing whether you can WW an orb sorc with a 2x dagger barb when she has less than 50% mana! I think it must be BM since it isn't in LLD101's rules! |
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Roy
My level 18s > yours Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 5750 223.30 Silvarrr |
All that I do see in LLD101's rules is the following:
Again, I consider toe-to-toe dueling to mean that both opponents say go, namelock each other, and beat each other to death. Chasing spirits in a melee duel appears to violate the rule that the dueling remain toe-to-toe and that no running is allowed. If the rules are updated to state that you can kill spirits, I won't mind at all. However, in this ambiguous situation, I'm basing my opinion on LLD101 rules first, and GM PvP rules second. Neither to me suggests that killing spirits isn't BM. As an afterthought, the speeding argument was response to Taco's question that "Do you follow every rule that you don't agree with?" Yes. I know that if I speed, I will get a ticket. It's not up to individuals to determine what rules to follow and what rules to ignore. If you want to pull one of my examples, how about capital punishment? A majority of people in America support capital punishment. That doesn't automatically mean that it is morally justifiable.
Not true. Most LLD's mana pot, but mana potting is quite BM. _________________
yarly Last edited by Roy on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
Agreed, so please follow the rule that killing a spirit is OK even though you don't agree with it. |
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Roy
My level 18s > yours Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 5750 223.30 Silvarrr |
Please quote the rule that states that killing spirits is OK in a melee duel. As soon as you do, this discussion will be over. _________________
yarly |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
Since there is no rule against killing spirits, it is clearly OK. There are an infinite amount of scenerios in D2 that can occur. It would be impossible to make a rule for each scenerio just to let you know that they aren't BM. Why can't you understand this? |
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GODZ!
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 3623 BNet Acct/Realm: ECWK 0.00 Silvarrr |
roy whenever asked to show specific examples i cannot recall once where you have done so. |
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Meegz ?
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 2671 BNet Acct/Realm: *meegz @ east ladder 39.74 Silvarrr |
If the rules say that chasing down and killing summoned spirits ARE allowed when fighting a druid in melee combat then there is nothing that can be done against that IN THE ARENA. But the point here is that they weren't dueling in the arena, they were supposed to be having a GM duel between two maul druids. To me, charging you're maul on the other druids spirit is 2x as bad, because not only do you start attacking them with a charged up maul, you also kill their spirit (which I do find to be bm in melee duels) Why hasn't Fudge addressed the fact that he's too afraid to duel IOWA (of all people) in a strictly bear vs bear duel? That is the point of all of this. Everyone else keeps getting off topic on wether or not its in the rules. Every time you duel outside the arena, the two players set the rules. If Fudge chooses to not abide by IOWA's rules that he requests, even for a couple duels just to see how evenly matched their chars are built, then that point right there is where Fudge starts to be bm. It's all a compromise. "Hey, don't attack my spirit, I wanna see how well you built your bear not how well you can kill my spirit" is not that hard to comply with. _________________ Napalm loves the little children, all the little children of the world, Red and Yellow, Black and White They are Candles in the Night Napalm loves the little children of the world. |
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