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The time now is Tue May 28, 2024 11:49 pm All times are UTC - 8 |
 Forum index » Off-Topic Section » Off-Topic Discussion |
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For Intelligent Christians Only.
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| Page 8 of 11 [157 Posts] | Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next |
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dragonfire_god
Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 2117 BNet Acct/Realm: US East NL SC  2.22 Silvarrr |
You can choke on a milk jug, you can carry your milk in it, you can feel it, you can taste it, you can see it. I rely on my senses for that one. _________________ In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Its Not The Strong Who Survive But The Survivors Who Are Strong. The insanity of my sin bodes within. |
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Dao Jones
 Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 2959 BNet Acct/Realm: *Dao_Jones, Bi-Realmsual. 33.66 Silvarrr |
This is all quite reasonable. And quite unprovable. Frankly, these theories holds no more water with our understanding of science than to say God started it all. Unless I'm greatly misunderstanding Hawking's statements, then: Hawkings guess = Catholic Church's guess. Both are faith-based assumptions. Neither have definitive science on their side. Neither are provable with our current scientific understanding. I was talking about this very subject over lunch with a friend today, and she had an interesting point to make: she thought what was interesting about all this was mankind's seemingly desperate and irrational need to definitively state what we cannot with any definitiveness currently state: whether or not a "God" exists. You can pick a side, but you don't really know, do you? And don't give me that "by that definition nothing is provable" line, either. Many things in life are not certain, but easily provable given observation. At some point in my life, I'm going to die. If I shoot myself with a gun, it will hurt. Sure, there's never 100% certainty with anything in the world, but we can witness and understand certain outcomes simply by the test of observation. And while it's not foolproof, we know that if we drop a ball 9 times and it falls to the ground, time #10 it will probably fall to the ground again. But we can't prove or disprove God. We just can't. Not now, at least. We should keep exploring, mind you. But it's not only hubris, but more than laughable to use such definitive language as "There Is/Is Not a God". _________________ 
The New LLD101 splash page (Props to Shieron) |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
I've already stated multiple times that you can't disprove anything so stop saying that. Again -you can't prove anything with 100% certainty. You can't prove that a milk jug exists with 100% certainty. Arguing the existence of God is just as reasonable as arguing the existence of a milk jug. Neither can be proven with 100% certainty, but science clearly favors one side of each argument heavily.
Steven Hawking's theories certainly have science on their side. It's not 100% definitive, but God has no science at all on his side. Which seems more likely to you?
Yes, but you can't be 100% certain. Similarly, I've observed a lot of people step into water and none of them magically walked on top of it. Therefore it seems very unlikely that Jesus was able to. |
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Dao Jones
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 2959 BNet Acct/Realm: *Dao_Jones, Bi-Realmsual. 33.66 Silvarrr |
Agreed. See, to me, that's a pretty rational statement. We've never seen anyone walk unaided on the surface of water, so it's a safe assumption Jesus did not, either. It's not 100% certain he did not, but it's a pretty safe guess he didn't, based on readily observable laws of nature. And that's my key point there: readily observable laws of nature. Nothing in our science can explain or disprove the existence of God. Nothing in our science can explain the origin of the universe. Both are just guesses, so why should one guess be more credible than the other? Why make such absolutist statements about it? He might exist - he might not. Have your personal opinion, but be sure to keep an open mind either way. Why be so concrete?
"Science" once said the earth was flat, demons caused disease, and black people had measurably smaller brains than whites. Science has been wrong before. I like science too - don't get me wrong - but aligning yourself with science so heavily as to rule out the possibility of it being wrong is indistinguishably different from the zealotry seen in religious fanatics. I'm saying keep an open mind. _________________
The New LLD101 splash page (Props to Shieron) |
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Jerkazoid
 Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
that is an excellent proof that established dogma through texts must be falible, and by definition negates the pronounced establishments of the all- mighty. however we forget that (as you and i beileve break) the bible was written by man. so you and i cant take it literally at all. [sorry break] but again, why is the argument about this universal truth? u cant do that with faithfull, u must make fun of them and reject them the same way they reject your faith in science, evolution/biology, medicine and all the modern effort by great minds in the last 200 years. ; ) but without the arguments of "truth" the two are just NOT compatible bc 1 will accept change and facts, while the other really does not bc its too "right" based on word from a higher entity. this has nothing to do with the private opinions of those at LLD101 this has to do with continued power towards the institution that heavily decides domestic and foreign policies based on a infalible (fascist) super natural "dictator" who speaks through someones 3rd eye. its why i will vote Democrate, bc conservative republicans are the greater evil. science.. or the lord? which is it? you either fight against the conservative republican parties ideology through gods words.. or your fine with god and ok with them making laws and veto power. sitting on a fence means NOTHING, i really hope this finally makes sence; stop being an apathatic agnostic; choose conservative republican dogma, or fight against it. you cant leave the door open for them (DONT YOU AGNOSTICS UNDERSTAND??? YOUR APPEASING TO THEIR POWER BY ARGUING AGAINST US) [sorry dao, ill say it again u must choose something; an open mind wont get us much in that fight bc they are not changing] _________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people.  |
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ThatGuy
Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 1712 BNet Acct/Realm: MONTREAL YAA! Quit d2 5.36 Silvarrr |
I think Jerkazoid is becoming the forum dictator. O.O _________________  |
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Jerkazoid
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
vivA la resistance ps all FG donated to Tguy 
(all 0.14 of it  )
_________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people. |
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Dao Jones
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 2959 BNet Acct/Realm: *Dao_Jones, Bi-Realmsual. 33.66 Silvarrr |
I don't even understand what he's getting at. Something about forcing everyone to chose some absolutist position in a "war" that I'm not sure even exists. "Not choosing a side" is a pretty good choice, really, because it frees you from being force-fed the dogma of either camp. It's just like politics; people say "you're either a Democrat or a Republican. If you're a Dem you *must* believe A, B & C, and if you're a Repub you're for D, E & F." I say no. I'll believe what I believe, and I'll find the candidate who best represents that regardless of his party affiliation. Religion is the same way. I can shake my head at the wild-eyed scientists who spend all day positing ludricrous hypotheses to explain away every mystery in the universe, and then turn around and laugh at the zealous religious nut telling me that dinosaurs and men lived side-by-side 6000 years ago. People at the extremes are not the ones that lead us forward. It's the true people of reason that can see the value of both sides that help society progress. Open-minded skeptic > close-minded absolutist. _________________
The New LLD101 splash page (Props to Shieron) |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
I just don't understand why people don't choose a side. You don't need to be 100% sure that you're correct in order to believe something. |
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ThatGuy
Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 1712 BNet Acct/Realm: MONTREAL YAA! Quit d2 5.36 Silvarrr |
Alright, I'm convinced then, I'll join la resistance 
No Dao, we are at WAR! Pick up a handgun, you're either with us or you're not! And I pray to God that you're with us! Ocrap, I owned myself. 
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zarc
Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 865 BNet Acct/Realm: USEast NonLadder *fyarbeast USEast Ladder *fyarbeast1 -2.48 Silvarrr |
OOOOO!!! I WANT TO BE A GENERAL!!! and by general i mean general public who doesnt really do anything for anyone or give a damn... _________________  |
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Dao Jones
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 2959 BNet Acct/Realm: *Dao_Jones, Bi-Realmsual. 33.66 Silvarrr |
And I don't understand why people need to. I'm confused that people need to feel a strong conviction about something they cannot really know about. I've heard French people are rude, and I've heard French people are nice; having not met more than a few in my entire life I don't feel compelled to "make up my mind" about them one way or the other. If ever I go to France I suppose that experience will help me decide, but until then I'm perfectly okay with ambivalence.
But why "believe" anything if you can't be sure? I can have an opinion on something, but remain skeptical enough to change said opinion if enough evidence presents itself to conflict with my currently held opinion. I used to be utterly convinced Leonardo DiCaprio was a god-awful actor. Romeo + Juliet, The Beach, Gangs of New York - everything I saw him in he was just miserable. But then I saw The Aviator and Blood Diamond, and he was very good in both. So, I now am of the opinion he is not a god-awful actor. I always had an opinion one way or the other, but I didn't commit myself to a rock-solid unwavering belief. If I had I would have not seen The Aviator or Blood Diamond (because I would have assumed they were bad movies since he starred), and both were good flicks. _________________
The New LLD101 splash page (Props to Shieron) |
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breakbeatz2
Victim of the BAN BLUDGEON Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4095 0.00 Silvarrr |
Well religion is something that influences all of us. It influences us in our personal lives and also the direction of our country as a whole. I think it's something that we want to get right.
I believe that a ball will fall downwards when you drop it. I believe that the milk jug I see actually exists. I believe in many things, and I'm not 100% sure of any of them. I assume that you also believe the ball will fall downwards even though you aren't 100% sure. So, why do you refuse to take a stance in this debate about God just because you aren't 100% sure?
So? There are obviously things that could change my belief as well. They just haven't happened yet, and I don't expect them to ever happen. When someone asks you whether DiCaprio is a god awful actor nowdays I assume you say "no" since it is your current opinion. It's ridiculous to refrain from ever stating an opinion just because it may change in the future. |
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Jerkazoid
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
i am fighting for a fight. 
anywhoo.... the issue isnt if your dem' or rep', why choose one bc u get locked in... but when you vote, you will choose a side of power. its unfortunate, but realistic that you will need to make a choice for something. not voting is fine imo (really i dont care).... but u have power to decide and you might as well control what you feel is right. (and even if u dont vote yet you can support) if u like secular politics http://www.secular.org/ the reaction has nothing to do with truth, or logic, its all emotion obviously (i dont read books because they have no heart!! - colbert)... its based soley on the consequences i felt from religon. i want people who find the same consequences to organize and have a place to collect whats bothering me most right now is atheists recieve consequences for admitting disbelief, while critisism of faith is religious-prosecution.....  go figure. (this is why i will act like such an ass or perhaps a jerk, now, to give back the same consequences i had to feel for having skeptisism in faith. and i want others who feel the same to do the same.)
the take-no-side agnostic puts lemon juice on my Q.Q wounds. religon; dont ask, dont tell. _________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people. |
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dragonfire_god
Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 2117 BNet Acct/Realm: US East NL SC 2.22 Silvarrr |
Nor can you be certain that you can't be 100% certain. _________________ In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Its Not The Strong Who Survive But The Survivors Who Are Strong. The insanity of my sin bodes within. |
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